Netflix's new series "Cowboy Bebop" is a live-action remake of the popular anime that tells the bounty hunter in the new black future. Fashion and irony, violence and cynicism, the show is a bold mashup of genres-western, crime, science fiction, companion comedy, melodrama, thriller, martial arts. It bears all these effects on the rolled up sleeves. It is played by John Zhao as Spike, a bounty hunter or cowboy in the show, with a dark past. My name is Glen Weldon, and today, we are talking about "Cowboy Bebop" on NPR's POP CULTURE HAPPY HOUR.

Weldon: Author and film critic Walter Chaw joined me from his home in Denver. Hey, Walter.

WALTER CHAW: Good morning, space cowboys.

Weldon: (Laughter) Welcome back. Along with us is Christina Lee, a writer, NP Music, Bottom Of The Map podcast writer and co-host. Welcome back, Christina.

Christina Lee, Wired: Glenn, Walter, very happy to be here.

Weldon: Nice to have you. OK. Now, American audiences may remember the original Japanese "Cowboy Bebop" anime from the 90s. It was broadcast on the adult swimming program block of Cartoon Network. In the following years, it proved to have great influence and gained cult status. Given its limited operation, this is unusual—only 26 episodes and one movie—it continues to serve as an introduction to the animation format for many people. This is one of the reasons why people look forward to such a live-action adaptation so much. As we mentioned, John Cho plays a bounty hunter named Spike who works with Mustafa Shakir's rude but cute Jet Black on the Bebop spacecraft. Soon, Faye Valentine, played by Daniella Pineda, joined them. She is another bounty hunter with a mysterious past.

The mysterious past is the whole content of this show, because every character is haunted by the life they once lived. The villain of this work is the aptly named Vicious, a crime boss played by Alex Hassel, who is now dating Spike’s predecessor Julia, who is played by Elena Satin. All this happened after the earth became uninhabitable, the dirty future of terraformed planets and satellites. It is now playing on Netflix. Christina, let me start with you. What is your connection with anime? What are your thoughts on the new show?

LEE: Man, I hope I have cable TV when it airs in the 90s.

Li: Unfortunately, we are not that kind of family. We are totally a PBS family. But in fact, I only really came to watch this show in the past year, because the closing order has been in place. I asked myself, you know, what areas of pop culture have I missed? For example, what can I catch up with? "Cowboy Bebop" happens to be one of these shows. So I took it literally in the past year.

Weldon: What do you think of the new show?

Li: I fell right in the middle. I think some moments are really great, and some moments I think are controversial for a reason. So, I mean, for me, whether in the best moment or in the most controversial moment, I think it serves as a good reminder of how great the original is actually.

Weldon: Walter, the same question is for you. What do you think of the original series? What are your thoughts on the new?

CHAW: Well, I like the original series. When I played them on VHS 20 years ago, I liked it better. I am an early subscriber of it. But I watched the whole series again in recent weeks, just before watching the live-action series, just to cheer myself up. And I have to say, I think it is not as old for me as I thought. Part of the reason may be that the original series is so influential. Anything influential, when you look back, from the perspective of all the other arts that inspired it over the past two decades, it doesn't seem so new now. It doesn't seem so cool now.

Weldon: Yes, postmodern conditions.

Zhou: That's right. Yes, exactly. So a little bit naive, I think, in the original version, especially in FayeValentine's clothing. And I know that when the early images of the live-action version appeared, it was a bit of a mess on the Internet. Many people are complaining about how Faye Valentine’s costumes are not as revealing and sexy as in the anime. Honestly, you know-actress Daniella Pineda responded, I'm sorry, I am not 6 feet, 2 inches waist, double DD breasts, I think, she said. Yes, really, I think, in terms of her visual depiction in the original series, there is a lot of naivety.

Now, in terms of character depth-very beautifully handled. But all those great things about the original, its form, its function, the depth and development of the character, I think these are missing from the live-action film. The feeling this series gives me is that I don’t want to really irritate anime lovers, but I also want to welcome newcomers to join. Therefore, let us soften its weirdness and original character (ph). Let's make something with a traditional storyline, a traditional villain plot, and a lot of flashbacks to let you know that Vicious becomes a main character, not, you know, a mysterious supporting role. For me, it just doesn't work. I am very sad.

Weldon: It's interesting because the audience may wonder why I want to ask you about your experience with the animated series, and then invite you to compare them. That is inevitable. This show spared no effort to wear that anime on its sleeve, and I tried to figure out-when we recorded this, comments on this matter are now all over the map. This seems to be the case before you start picking a through line. Critics who are familiar with the anime series are divided into the middle part. They found that the live version was either a big mistake or unnecessary, and critics who didn't know much about animation-hi-seemed to like it a lot. I like this very much. I definitely belong to the latter. It really made me curious about this anime. For better or worse, everyone is sitting next to Netflix.

Weldon: The next tile ends. Frankly speaking, after watching 7 episodes of 10 episodes provided to critics, I started watching anime, and I haven't returned to the live-action series because the animation is — breaking news, popular shooting — pretty good. It looks firmer and more lively. It moves better. Usually, I prefer general narratives, such as the weekly monster episodes of "X-Files"...

WELDON: ...or "Smallville". The live-action series seems to be driving this overall narrative. Again, comparing these two series may be unfair, but it is inevitable. There are so many scenes, so many dialogues, so many camera actions, every damn thing-title sequence.

(Original sound of YOKO KANNO SONG, "TANK!")

WELDON: It spared no effort to recreate the title sequence of the animation. Although it is novel, this show does require one's own identity, and I haven't felt it yet. Now, maybe-the last three episodes, if you have watched them, is this course correct in any way?

CHAW: I want to please people who love anime or love anime and admire anime. This is really frustrating-you know, anyway, people who are familiar with anime and people who are not familiar with anime. It wants to please both of them. When pleasing multiple owners, we know that you cannot please any of them. You end up letting everyone down. So I think "Cowboy Bebop" is a very interesting universe, and it would be nice to have different stories in this universe. You know, trying to remake it into a live-action version is doomed to failure. These worlds and what they can do will not have the same energy, the same creativity, and the same flexibility. It's like-it can't be compared.

Li: I mean, in terms of its value, I totally agree with me that the live-action adaptation does prepare us for these astronomical expectations, and I think it is just destined to begin. As for animation, as you said, Walter is like a flexible medium, and Hollywood does not serve it well...

LEE: ...and I think many fans are very pessimistic. In 2017 alone, we saw Netflix try to adapt the "Death Note" and set it in the United States. In the same year, "Ghost in the Shell" was introduced to us through the honorary Asian Scarlett Johansson.

LEE: Of course, we saw M. Night Shyamalan trying to make "The Last Airbender". so...

LEE: ...into this, I would say that my expectations are very low. For me, I think this is good, and I think it proves how Hollywood has really changed the media, or perhaps underestimated how much American audiences love the media and the stories it tells and the way it tells them. What's interesting is that Vicious would think about it, because I think he is described as a loose cannon, completely opposite to his actual situation, a bit like a mysterious power in anime, and it feels like a kind of injury. Like, from the first time I saw him, I thought, what is Draco Malfoy doing here? you know what I mean?

Li: This is not what the show originally wanted to accomplish. But I want to...

LEE: ...it's kind of like, this kind of wrong expectation. I'm not sure if this is Western sentiment or something else. The love of these moments and entertainment have become fan favorites. They also somewhat underestimated the effectiveness of storytelling.

CHAW: In a small defense of the "Ghost in the Shell" movie, I think it does a good job in that it sometimes captures the weirdness of anime—for Western emotions, I would say it is weird. What "Cowboy Bebop" failed to do was that it failed to capture the weirdness of "Cowboy Bebop". This is not peculiar. This is a very traditional storyline. They gave Jet Black a little girl. He was his absent father. These stories are from Ron Howard's script.

CHAW: You know, this is not "Cowboy Bebop".

(TV show soundtrack, "Cowboy BEBOP")

Mustafa Shakir: (as jet black) Hi, Bean. Sorry I missed the party.

Molly Moriarty: (as Kimi Black) Hi.

Shakiel: (as jet black) Look at you. Can't believe you have grown bigger. happy Birthday. I prepared a gift for you.

Molly: (playing Kimi Black) Is it a walking Sally doll?

Sharkiel: (as jet black) No, dear-something better.

CHAW: So I think in your opinion, audiences are underestimated-that is, you know, American audiences, they just can't cope with the narrative leap. They cannot handle the anthology format. They can't deal with the weird nature of "Cowboy Bebop", which is a Western dystopian science fiction infused with jazz music. You know, but in fact, we can. Challenge people. Let people catch up with you. I think there is a director who really translates animation very well. His name is Takashi Miike, the great Japanese director. He has produced 80 films in 20 years. He's crazy. But-he did a "monster war". He did "Jojo's Bizarre Adventure: Diamonds Are Indestructible". This is amazing because it is so strange. He's like, do you know? I do not apologize for my culture. I do not apologize for the source material. The original series was very unapologetic for being very different.

Weldon: Yes. Now, one of the things that got Netflixization (ph) in this live-action adaptation, and one of the legitimate new things is these actors. So let's talk about these performances, because when you adapt the one and a half hour anthology into a one-hour overall narrative, you give the character more room for growth and existence, but the effect is different for different actors . I think Cho is great. I think Mustafa Shakir is a bit stiffer than his "Luke Cage" here, but maybe this is the character. What the fuck do i know? What I really like is Daniella Pineda. When she started to have a fast-paced conversation, almost like "His Girl Friday", I think this is the best series. What do you think of acting?

LEE: My reaction to you is a bit opposite, that is-I think it's really interesting, and maybe it just shows the fact that I watched "Cowboy Bebop" recently. So for John Cho, I like him very much. You know, as a fellow Asian with curly hair, I can certainly appreciate the aerodynamics of his hair.

Li: I appreciate it very much. It is certainly a feat to get a certain wave. I really admire Mustafa Shakir as Jet, especially because Jet is a grumpy character. It's like, he is a person who has been injured and seen war marks, but he can't help but raise it. So I think his most prominent episodes are those that I tend to be attracted to. In a sense, it is truly gratifying fan service. I think Faye-I don’t know if this must be a criticism of performance because it’s about characterization, but I’m a little shocked, or even a little shocked by her way, like, a little bit I think, than I originally wrote Talk or talk more when you think about it. I almost want to know if the Netflix version of the show host really can't regard Faye as the tragic character he wrote. It was as if, for better or worse, they tried to flesh out her into something very strange, and at the same time let us understand the tragedy inherent in her story.

So I definitely feel that at least for Faye Valentine, she was portrayed by Daniella Pineda—probably the most unfaithful. I would love to know what other people think, you know, whether she will be the entry point for animation, just like you, Glenn, or if, you know, before someone who has seen it, maybe, like, It's a bit harsh.

CHAW: At this point, I kind of agree with Christina. I mean, considering what she has given, I think Daniela is great, but I think the way the character is written is a shame. It feels like catering to a certain ideal that Netflix wants to achieve. According to them, what a woman should look like, not what a role is like. I mean female heroes, because they are traditionally portrayed in genre novels, not the way they are portrayed now, like Ripley’s badass version in Alien and the broken Ripley in Alien 3 "If you want to learn more about the nerd-dom (ph) reference material. I want to say that this is the person they are trying to describe here, like this female boss, who is very fast to the single line. Like, she once said something similar , Welcome to oops and the like.

CHAW: I think, I understand. She is awesome. I get it. But, you know, I think Marvel encountered the same thing in their universe...

CHAW: ...This is not actually progress. This actually does not represent progress. In fact, in Christina's view, this behavior betrayed the character. I really like Jay Chou. I love him. I love him. He is—you know, for Asian Americans, he is our Marlon Brando in many ways.

CHAW: For Spike, he seems too old for this character. He looks like, 20 years old is too old. In a live performance, there was a moment that really worked, and his tiredness, exhaustion, and tiredness all turned into wisdom. I like that. That's great. In the original version, these young people are more like an existential melancholy. These fashionable people have just realized their insignificance in the universe. Everything is falling apart. You know, this is really something in our current era, I think. And what was originally written in the animation-Spike Spiegel is that kind of existential cowboy. He was like, anyway, man. And, you know, the final title is always like, whether it will be or let go, cowboy. You know, this is just this, for example, acceptance and resignation.

The new one is really-A, this is the villain. This girl, you know, is the broken love he wants to reunite. This is a little girl as a hostage. This is the absent father. All these story metaphors, we will introduce them into the "Cowboy Bebop" universe, because we want to accurately capture the audience who will never, never, never click this.

Weldon: Years. How many of the restrictions we noticed here are due to differences in the media? So, like, in these two shows, genres and styles are so mixed, but there are some effortless things in the best anime, some effortless things in the best animation, the best reality show Must work harder. This has to do with the fact that our eyes are trained to recognize CGI. It is much easier for us to be kicked out of this world by small things. Good animation will not really happen to this situation, because we are in this world. It's all around us. It is fluid and continuous. So, Walter, you mentioned some successful live-action adaptations. What did they do, did this?

Zhou: Successful anime adaptation is lawless. If you watch Takashi Miike's "Immortal Blade" or "Jojo's Bizarre Adventure", he doesn't care about your expectations or your comfort level. He never did. And it won't have the boundaries you describe, Glenn, in reality TV. For us, this will be weightless and scary. This is what makes anime exciting, and I think this is what makes these adaptations exciting when they do well.

LEE: I don't think it has anything to do with how anime works as a medium. I think these are wonderful points. I think it adds weight to expectations. I think it has more to do with actual writing itself. So don’t be like the dog or anything on Faye, but in the original anime, I guess her background story in this relatively limited series is more fascinating, so in the show, we will see how she gets chilled Frozen, I think we will be even more intoxicated by her depression of amnesia, so we can't remember her background story, where it is, where she came from. During this journey, we really sympathized with her.

The difference between Netflix is, you know, knowing that we will only see 10 episodes, what you see at the top, I believe that episode 4 is like, a very suffocating truncated version of that background story. I don't think anyone who participated in this show for the first time will really feel its weight, because it is just a prelude to a completely unrelated narrative, a story that is more like a monster of the week.

Li: What's interesting is that Netflix started. I think, for example, to expand the background stories of these very beloved characters, and it's a bit risky, but I think they also sacrificed some of their hearts as a result. This is not even a criticism of performance. This is just a question of writing, and there may be some misunderstandings, such as why all these fragments, why all these existences are very complete.

CHAW: Yes, I think you really did it. This is really a performance issue. You know, when thinking about how they will reorganize this story, they really gave personal shortcomings. What really worked for me and still about the original "Cowboy Bebop" is that you have a very clear journey story, you have these different aspects of a single personality-hypermasculine, hyperfeminine, childish, you know, you have a mix of these Into a kind of psychological confusion, this ball is on bebop. They all settled slowly in the arc of the show. They are all elements of this personality. When you delete a main element, such as a quarter of it, when you delete it, and then you try to focus on the villain, when you take your attention away from it, I’m not sure it’s What the show is about. I don't know who it is about. I don’t know which background story to follow, because everyone has a background story. It's tiring, and it looks contrived.

This is a feeling that the original series has never had before. It feels free and loose, just like bebop. It feels like an impromptu performance. It's like, we are going to sit down, here, we are going to do one now, it is just a long battle sequence between Spike and this clown character. Or it will be about, you know, an alien thing, where there is broken food that has gone bad, the refrigerator has become a monster, and the whole episode is about that. That was great and exciting. It was a mistake to turn it into a soap opera, a poorly written one and a well-thought-out TV series. This is not "Cowboy Bebop".

Weldon: Yes. Other than that, you do notice the difference between a 24-minute animated series and a 55-minute narrative live-action series. Well, we want to know what you think of "Cowboy Bebop". Find us on facebook.com/pchh and @pchh on Twitter. This brings us to the end of our performance. Thank you both for being here. This is a great discussion.

LEE: Thank you for inviting us (laughs).

Weldon: Of course, thank you for listening to NPR's POP CULTURE HAPPY HOUR. If you have time and are very willing, please subscribe to our newsletter at npr.org/popculturenewsletter. See you tomorrow.

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